This would be a custom install, there is no "drop-in" condensor upgrade for that car.Check for proper fan operation, and clean the air path on both the condensor & radiator. For those of you who are considering what the cost is for R12 you can think of it this way: Dont go out to dinner this weekend. 10,000BTU conduction heating? You do not need to replace every o-ring in the system, but if you happen to open a connection that has an o-ring you should replace the old o-ring with one that is compatible with R134a and lubricate the o-ring with ac oil. 4) Inconsistent Airflow. . What effect would it have on performance, if any?At the moment, the ac is acting up - will work fine for about 15 minutes and then slowly the vent temperatures rise until the compressor switches off. If the system was upgraded by a professional it should have an upgrade sticker. Above this temperature, the saturation pressure of R134a is higher than that of R12; below, it is lower. However, it was found to be a very bad gas for the environment. "Howdy, Folks!" Interestingly, theres one oil type that works perfectly with both types of refrigerants. The most common influences which effect the capability of R134a to perform well are the condenser, in some cases the the superheat setting of the expansion valve or the amount of R134a. Theres no problem with using R134a in a home air conditioning system because it is a hydrofluorocarbon that doesnt cause environmental harm. R134a refrigerant is lighter than R12. The problem with using an approved alternative refrigerants other than R134a is that when the system is serviced it requires certain types of fittings, labels and dedicated equipment. You'll want the expansion valve matched to whatever refrigerant you're using. For example, at an evap temp of 30 (your daughter's system is probably running around 25-28 saturated in order to give a 32 duct temp), the pressure of R-134a is 26.1psi. Expansion Valve. Expansion Valves Catalog E-1, July 2012. If it splashes inside the eye, it could lead to a serious eye problem. 1) Warm Air From Vents. If 50 degrees across the cond. Miscibility with oil: R12 can be mixed with the compressor oil no matter the operating condition. Debug the condensor (I am a computer nerd after all!)3. Recharge the compressor with a/c ester oil and a tracer dye. It is mixed with the freon for the most part, and does accumulate in all components in small amounts. I've got a ball valve I'm going to put in the coolant line before the coolant goes through the firewall to the core. A Lot of the fins are bent, especially at the top. 42 (at best) w/ 134A in 2000 isuzu trooper. I have some experience with auto a/c but not too much. We, the Rxmechanic team, have presented a well-detailed comparison of R134a vs. R12. Is there a graph? Bohica, I appreciate your help with this. You can use the R134a retrofit capacity chart for this purpose. Discussion in 'Technical' started by Jsarnold, May 25, 2012. compressor, condenser, evaporator and expansion valve are specifically designed for use with R134a. Though - the valve for a 1991 says R12 on it, and for a 1994, it says R-134a. When you add fluorescent tracer dye to with the refrigerant oil it helps to track down leaks that push oil out of the system. The ozone depletion potential of a chemical is a factor that shows the level of degradation itll cause to the ozone layer that surrounds and secures the earth from harmful radiation. There is a lot of differences between the R12 and the R134a fittings, you can't mistake them. The only material difference between automotive A/C and a window A/C unit or refrigerator is that in the home application, the components are all inside the same rectangular box, but in the automotive application, the components are distributed throughout the car. I'm doing one thing at a time so I know what the cause was. and an evaporator core and expansion valve that are optimized for R134a . Its among the greenhouse gases and will keep adding the current problem of heat not leaving the earths atmosphere. An orifice tube is just a fixed nozzle that pisses refrigerant into the evaporator without any sort of feedback. They have no moving parts. You may have heard of a friend that did the job himself with borrowed equipment and 12 or 16 ounce cans of refrigerant. Some compressor manufacturers or OEMs suggest PAG type oil for R134a. I don't recall all the details, but starts off with the largest parallel flow condenser and improved fans. I have just bought gauges. R12, on the other hand, is called chlorofluorocarbon (CFC). Thanks again. At 2000rpm, windows open, highest fan, hi pressure stabilized at 225 psi, low 25psi.Ambient 81F, vent 61F. Your decision could be made based on economics, environmental concerns, or both. The compressors used by refrigeration plants to compress gas require oil to help lubricate its moving parts. This is an electronic tool that sucks in air through a tube and across a sensor. They might say for instance, add 3-4 oz of oil to the compressor, 1 oz of oil for when you replace a drier, 2 oz oil for the evaporator and so on. I'm not sure. Break out the new gauges and measure hi and lo at 1500rpm, and do the Merc FSM test to see how we're doing performance wise. . Superheat you can consider to be the additional amount of heat. Autor de l'entrada Per ; Data de l'entrada calexico west port of entry hours; 12 month libor rate 2021 a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve #4. June 21, 2022 difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve . Inasmuch as R134a has a global warming potential thats over 1000 times more threatening than carbon dioxide, its better than R12. Agram a retevis rt22 password i bastrop county district clerk records el material que oferim als nostres webs. |. That switch should close @ 52c. R12, on the other hand, has an ozone depletion potential of 1, implying that it can damage the ozone layer. #13. in /nfs/c05/h04/mnt/113983/domains/toragrafix.com/html/wp-content . I cleaned the evap as best I could, if that is what you are getting at. The larger fitting goes on the discharge port and the smaller fitting goes on the suction line or compressor inlet / suction port. I'll put the relay on for that. I'm thinking of jumping the temp switch and leaving the fan on to see how it does. R134a systems operate at higher discharge-side pressures than R12, which can cause compressor seals to leak. Energy usage: R134a is less efficient in cooling compared to R12. R134a requires the use of synthetic oil! You'll get marginally better performance out of the change as the expansion valve is matches the refrigerant characteristics. Even though their common major function is to cool the system, they have many differences. The problem with not being an expert is that you don't know what is important and what's not. What is needed? Generally the system will be initially charged with approximately 80% to 85% of the original amount of R12, using R134a. As R134A refrigerant has different operating characteristics and pressures this valve is not necesssry. The OEM spec is 2300 rpm @ 12.6v (engine stopped fully charged battery). Even with proper fan operation, missing seals & air dams can effect condensor effeciency. One thing at a time here, and slowly, the knee is not up to jumping around like I used to at the moment. The current expansion valve is FF - 1/4 - C. Is it neccesary to replace this valve? Edited: Sat July 14, 2007 at 10:22 PM by fonebone. Since you will be using less R134a than R12 you do not want to rely on the driers site glass to determine if the system is full. Before R12 was replaced with R134a in 1995, it was mostly used in trucks and cars. With R134a you do not rely on the site glass. I don't have the FSM matrix handy for that 123.123, but a 123.133 shows a test rpm of 2,000 - and vent temps between 54f & 66f at 91f to 95f ambient. R12 and R134 are of different chemistry. Safe but sorry! But R22 is almost equally damaging. Helical and Serpentine coils. Most vehicles manufactured before 1993 have the R12 A/C system. We sometimes use a relay switched from the compressor clutch to run fans. (The .133 is the 300D Turbo).So, what does your compressor look like?B. Very interesting! A vacuum pump, a refrigerant recover system, quality service gauge set with both low and high side gagues, and much more besides the lessons to learn what to do and what not to do. If liquid refrigerant were to exit the evaporator. The higher the ambient temperature the higher the high side pressure. El juny de 2017, el mateix grup va decidir crear un web deDoctor Who amb el mateix objectiu. R134a refrigerant fittings are different size. If not, you just don't know unless a test is performed. . 4) Repeat step 2, making sure it will fit. The difference between the two is about 10,000 btu/h. The larger line at the expansion valve is the suction line. The ratings for evaporator temperatures 40F, 20F, -10F, -40F in the capacity tables are in accordance with ANSI/ARI = R134a Charge Level R12 Expansion Valve = 201 830 06 84 R134A Expansion Valve = 201 830 04 84 Is there a difference after all? In this study, without the need for major modifications to the bus air conditioner, the variation of the ejector dimensions according to different parameters has been investigated in the case of using the R1234yf, R1234ze(E), or R600a refrigerants, which may be a substitute for R134a as a refrigerant due to . The typical scenario here is when the car owner buys an inexpensive retro-fit kit from the local auto parts store. How dumb!I will jumper the aux fan and redo the test. R-134a is widely believed to be the most acceptable R12 substitute. It's helluva humid and hot here in north florida, and I drive around all day for my job. I'm thinking I might have put too much oil in the system - everywhere i read had a different amount - the manufacturer of the compressor, the MB factory service manual, online forums. Gnats & mosquitos will clog deep. Disconnect the two hose lines to the compressor, protect the ends from getting dirty. of refrigerant insulation tape. 30 deg is pretty coldSystems generally run between 40 and 43 deg. Jun 17, 2011. In more serious, it could result in cardiac irregularities or death. The butylcellusolve or the citrus solvent will dissolve the carcass in a few minutes. My turn to LOL - greasiesel! Participate in over 40 different forums and search/browse from nearly 3 million posts. R12 and R22 are both now banned by the EPA in the United States. Big . In no particular order, here's what I've found out regarding answering the questions posed so far:Fonebone - It is definitely an R4 compressor (they left the c off the front and the p off the end, i.e. The P H and T cond,sat of the HR12 at a T oa of 40 C were higher than that of the R134a, resulting in a higher P e than that for the R134a. It slowly gets warmer and warmer in the car, even at highway speeds. -------------------------Just another brick in the wallHad a little mule I fed him castor oil and every time he jumped the fence he fertilized the soil, The older expansion valves were filled with the refrigerant they were used with, the replacement valves (today) are filled with a different chemical to work with both refrigerants..Hope this helps-------------------------ChickEmail: Chick---------------------------------------------Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose, I believe the optimum supercool setting will vary slightly between an expansion valve for an R12, as compared to R134a, system. Before we mentioned that you can add approximately 5-6 ounces of ester oil to the compressor. Stopleak is also risky. The approval is very legal one, governed by the U.S. EPA. Figure 2 shows the different phases and pressures the refrigerant . I'm just trying to help you avoid headaches in the long run. Heres R12 vs. R134a pressure chart. The oil is spread all over your system when it is at rest. The general practice of charging the system with 15% less refrigerant adds to the thermal deficiency of R134a. Maybe a jerky locker.I cleaned the condensor with the off the shelf ac cleaner stuff from Home Depot that I used on my home evaporator. On the other hand, R12 has a global warming potential of 10,910. And I already have so much time and money in this a/c project that I REFUSE to cut any corners as small as a TEV.It doesn't help that most people in the business (at least that I come in contact with, present company excluded, of course!) There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. Quick View. At this time you can still find R12, but, because it is no longer produced, availability is limited to current inventories and the price per pound is greater than R134a. If the system was upgraded by a professional it should have an upgrade sticker. It is possible I have 10 ounces (250 ml) in the system. R134a is the most widely accepted alternative automotive refrigerant used to replace R12. That way I will have reduced the oil by about 1/3 (assuming the oil is mixed evenly through the system). If you find any of these conditions you will want to liquid flush (with dedicated AC flush solution) all the lines, condensers, evaporator (remove the expansion valve) before you proceed further. Skin contact: If the R134a (liquid) comes in contact with your skin, it could cause a burn. For instance at 25 F the pressure of R-12 is 24.6 PSI and the pressure of R-134a is 22.1 PSI. By: james smith underoath; Comments: 0 . If your cars system has a sufficient condenser design and air flow to expel the greater amount of heat extracted by R134a, then by all means you should convert over when the time comes. Paul -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. The R134a compressor has a 1/8" step in on the high side port. Below are the major differences between R134a and R12: Chemistry The chemical composition of R12 and R134a differ. They examined the two configurations of capillary tubes i.e. R12 is otherwise called dichlorodifluoromethane is a colorless gas (chlorofluorocarbon halomethane (CPC) that is used as an aerosol spray propellant and a refrigerant, and is soluble in organic solvents. Post photos, respond to polls and access other special features. But, if your car lacks enough condenser and you have many 100+ degree days then you may want to stick either increase air flow, add another condenser as we mentioned in The Mr. Ice Project or stick with R12. -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. Put a relay on the compressor clutch to the aux fan (I like that idea - makes a lot of sense)How does that sound? There is more to check.The evaporator must be clean as well as the condensor - was this a smoker's car?You should check the water control valve for the heater core. 5. In a comparison between R12 vs R134a vs R1234yf, R1234yf will pass as the best refrigerant. The money you will save by will pay for the R12. R12 was once used in many air conditioning units as a refrigerant or cooling agent. In the automotive world, the replacement for R12 was R134a. If you still find it difficult to use R134a in a home AC system, you can check out a comparison of R12 vs R134a fittings to know the refrigerant that best fits the AC system. Shorting the plug for the refrigerant switch should run the fan when the compressor is on. I don't want to be chasing ghosts. Its duty is to convert toxic gasses produced by the engine into A brake cleaner is a powerful solvent for cleaning dirt from the brakes and other car components. Formula: (R12 Charge Specification x 0.9) - 0.25 lbs. Plus, not releasing the chemical into the air is morally justifiable. Besides, R134a refrigerant was manufactured after R12 was banned to help reduce the harshness of the old chemical (R12) on the ozone layer. I had a pair on my SAAB that seemed ok - but new ones ran 20% faster!Your best clue to airflow issues is a 60 mph test. Are r12 and r134 fittings different? In cases such as this, the required capacity value of the expansion valve with R134a is reduced by 30% (correction factor 1.42). This would become an expensive investment for a repair or service station to have unique dedicated equipment for every type of alternative refrigerant. We are an automotive mechanic blog that helps mechanics and car users to find the most recent and accurate technical and repair information for their cars. This can be very very expensive. However, R12 refrigerants are still used as fire retardants in aircraft and submarines. R134a has the chemical formula CF3CH2F and is known as tetrafluoroethane. It cycles on off in med (or low for that matter)Gotta tell ya. PaulJerky King -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. "Jerky Locker" LMAO I am using that one in the future!Florida = BUGS! It is a known suspect that lets heat into the heat exchanger/core even when off because the mono-valve is on the exit side of the heater core. I had a 1991 BMW switched to 134a by just changing the low pressure charging valve, flushing and refilling with 134 (maybe with 10% . Formula: (R12 Charge Specification x 0.9) - 0.25 lbs. These two refrigerants are the older types and are not used in newer refrigeration and air conditioning systems. The old compressor used R12 and the new unit will be R134a. Best for varieties of operating conditions: Its boiling point is -21.6 Celsius. is good, then I should be looking elsewhere? The mechanical fan & clutch should be checked as well. Since then, the industry standard has been R134a, which is an efficient replacement. R134a is called tetrafluoroethane (HFC). Attach the R134a charge port adaptors, there are two types.. one of which you need to remove the old R12 valve cores. You will be fine with a 134a-compatible TXV running R12. I'm curiousSo there is work to do, ie performance should be able to be improved. Get to the point where I can walk without crutches2. Further production of R12 was banned in some developed countries by the Montreal Protocol because of its harsh effect on the ozone layer. So you could likely put off buying those new hoses just a bit longer if you wanted. The pressure at low temperatures is nearly the same between 12 and 134a. I remember I had the wrong seals and it leaked some oil, so I put some more in.Bohica - I tested the pressures. 3 ounces? Remove the old mineral oil from the compressor by turning it upside down, side to side, and turn the front hub on the clutch assembly. It can be used applications like walk-in coolers, food and dairy display cases, domestic refrigerators, and beverage dispensers and vending machines. After the optimum refrigerant charge is determined the car should be test driven to check for performance of the system. 37 in 2005 tacoma, R134A. Safety: R134a is safe to use as its non-flammable and cant explode. Most of all the differences gravitate to longevity, functionality, and safety. There are other refrigerants: some of which may work, some of which dont work, some of which will destroy your a/c system and some of which are dangerous. They would then make short "jumper hoses" to connect to the existing stock hoses, refit your old fan if there is a "pusher" fan, and recharge to specs. Since the hose is the stock hose, you cannot tell what refrigerant is inside. Super heats are so close, it should not be a major concern.-------------------------The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. The non-flammables can have R22 type gas which is not compatible with most rubber hoses or they have gases that contribute to global warming. The analysis focuses on Coefficient of Performance for . Answer: OK, I'll bite. But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. If you have a perfectly operating system using R12 you do not have to drop what you are doing and convert to R134a. Though you can purchase 12 or 16 ounce cans of R134a from local retailers it is very difficult to measure out the correct amount into your system. There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. These cheap kits usually have a few cans of R134a (either 12 ounce or 16 ounce), maybe an extra can of refrigerant oil, a few generic R134a charge port adapters and maybe some o-rings. However, theyre still used in older plants, systems, and the automotive industry. Back in that era, my business associates drove those things, brand new, and maybe I should take my Cadillac instead, no they wouldn't be caught dead in a Caddy, people of our esteem should be driving an MB. Anyone know what happens when an R12 expansion valve is used in a system charged with R134A? A final difference is that most (though not all) R-1234yf cars will have a Suction Line Heat Exchanger. Thanks so much Bohica - you've save me many more hours of fruitless speculation. You may be just fine on oil - it depends on what compressor you have & how much oil you put in.A T/C is short for Thermocouple. Trinary Pressure Switch $ 39.99. This leads me to labor over every small decision. This implies that the discharge pressure of the compressor should be moderate so it can produce the refrigerants condensation in the condenser at the atmospheric temperature. In 1994 they switched from R-12 to R-134a. We ALWAYS want to know the pressure readings! When ever possible you should ask the technician to note the same information on your repair bill and keep a copy in your glove box for future reference. And I lied about the compressor switches on this car - there are 2 switches on the drier - a temp and a pressure switch. Als nostres webs oferimOne Piece,Doctor Who,Torchwood, El Detectiu ConaniSlam Dunkdoblats en catal. First, differences in physical properties: 1, insoluble R12 compressor oil is used (to reduce the lubricant) 2, dissolved sealing materials are used (resulting in refrigerant leakage) 3, easy to damp (so easy to internal . Right now you know you have a bit too much, but with a CR4P compressor this is an insurance policy. It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. In short, NO! Any advice appreciated. Be sure to test @ 1500 to 2000 engine rpm, and record the ambient temp as well. R134a is NOT less efficient than R12 Actually R134a is more efficient. R12 Expansion Valve = 201 830 06 84 R134A Expansion Valve = 201 830 04 84 Is there a difference after all? If you're getting a R134a compressor, might as well finish the job - replace the receiver/dryer, flush everything else, and convert to R134a anyhow. I don't think it has any air dams or seals, I'll check to make sure. If there is no pusher fan, and you have the room, put one in. The global warming potential measures the amount of heat trapped by any gas compared to the amount of heat trapped by the same amount of carbon dioxide. Expansion valves are an active device, they regulate the flow of refrigerant to the evaporator depending on evaporator temperature. . You are indeed 20% out of the OEM spec for cooling. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. Using R134a requires that Polyolester (POE) lubricant must be used in the compressor. This may be the source of your oil confusion. system of 0.33 TR and refrigerant used was R12. Pound for pound R134a is a more efficient refrigerant than R12, however it runs at higher pressures in some aspects and therefore requires more effective condensing. Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site. Gain access to our free AOP (Ask a Professional) Section to get real answers for your questions. By using a black light the dye will glow in areas where oil leaks are visible. Welcome to rxmechanic.com. I've done the FSM test and with 81F ambient, the vent should be 50F. might be due to charge or different compressor and age. How is the vent airflow?I would jumper the aux fan & check the performance. Tamb oferim en VOSC el contingut daquestes sries que no es troba doblat, com les temporades deDoctor Who de la 7 en endavant,les OVA i els especials de One Piece i molt ms. . Still, I have some simple green, so may as well give it a go. You will be fine with a 134a-compatible TXV running R12. Your average garage that works on a/c on the side probably would not have this. and he synthesized R-134a in 1936, 5 years after R-12 was . At the time I thought nothing of it, but now I am thinking maybe that is contributing to the system not working as well as it could. B. Very nice! There are significant differences between R12, R134a, and R513A, which must be considered when handling, processing, applying, or retrofitting with these refrigerants.
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